20 OCTOBER 1940PURANI: Gandhi has declared his programme: he will start civil disobedience with twenty people of his Ashram - no outsiders — including two ladies, and he has even asked the Congress Working Committee members not to attend the meetings. SRI AUROBINDO: And if the Government doesn't arrest them? SATYENDRA: He may go through the whole of India and he will establish the right of free speech. SRI AUROBINDO: But only Gandhi's followers may not be arrested. Others won't be free. He is fighting for freedom for everybody. Is this the new movement? Nothing new there! PURANI: It seems Azad differed from Gandhi and was on the point of resigning! SRI AUROBINDO: As far as that? PURANI: Yes, he doesn't believe in ethical movements. He wants non-violence as a political weapon like others. But he was persuaded to stay on. SRI AUROBINDO: But if these people are not arrested, what will be the next move? PURANI: Gandhi doesn't say. Perhaps he will wait for inspiration. Page -936 SATYENDRA: But Pattabhi knows. SRI AUROBINDO: How? SATYENDRA: Yes, he seems to know all about Gandhi's scheme and writes about it in the papers. SRI AUROBINDO: What did he write? SATYENDRA: The Indian Express cut a joke at his cost. SRI AUROBINDO: It is as somebody said, "Only God and Hitler know what Hitler will do next," so only God and Pattabhi know what Gandhi will do? (Laughter) NIRODBARAN: Like Dinabandhu Mitra writing an epilogue to Bankim's novels? SRI AUROBINDO: How is that? NIRODBARAN: As soon as Bankim had finished a novel, Mitra used to come out with a conclusion imitating Bankim's manner, style, etc. Bankim said that he wouldn't be able to write any more because of this man. SRI AUROBINDO: I see! He married off Ayesha to Jagat Singh? NIRODBARAN: Something like that. PURANI: There seems to be some truth about sixty thousand German soldiers being killed on September 15 when Hitler planned to invade England. It was reported at that time. SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, it was reported? That staved off the invasion then? If only during embarkation sixty thousand were killed, then in crossing and landing how many more died? Everybody who wanted to invade England stumbled against England's sea power. Now I don't think there is any chance of an invasion, because all of Hitler's plans have been exposed and seen. PURANI: Yes, the British R.A.F. is now able to know Germany's moves and preparations. Hitler now admits to Britain's naval power. SRI AUROBINDO: Oh! it won't be long before he admits to Britain's air power too. SATYENDRA: Russia says that Germany and England are equal in air power. SRI AUROBINDO: Equal in force, not number. PURANI: If they can start invading Germany — SRI AUROBINDO: That will take about a year more. A standing army of one-and-a-half million is not enough for that. SATYENDRA: Each side is now at a stalemate. PURANI: Unless some unknown factor supervenes, one doesn't know how long it will go on. Page -937 SRI AUROBINDO: The only unknown factor is "Russia or America coming in. America seems to have come to an understanding with Russia. That may be the reason for their sending war materials. But for America to enter the war with the complete equipment of her mechanised army will still take one or two years. In reply to Russia's note, Germany seems to have said that her step in Rumania is directed against any aggression — nothing more. If any other power threatens, Germany will fight, which means that she is quite ready to fight Russia if Russia attacks Rumania. PURANI: If Turkey is attacked by Germany what Russia will do, I wonder. SRI AUROBINDO: Don't know. NIRODBARAN: Russia is also interested in Bulgaria. SRI AUROBINDO: It was Russia under the Czar that liberated the Balkans and, if the Czar were there, they would have inclined towards Russia. Now they are afraid of both Russia and Germany. PURANI: There was a short engagement with the Italian navy in the Mediterranean in which the British destroyed two or three Italian cruisers. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, only a short engagement is possible with Italy.
EVENING
The evening radio says that Yugoslavia has signed a protocol with Germany as regards economic and political matters.
SRI AUROBINDO (to Purani): Have you seen Yugoslavia's agreement with Germany? PURANI: Yes, they are coming to an understanding. SRI AUROBINDO: No, not only understanding; they have signed a protocol by which Yugoslavia is dependent on Germany economically and politically, which means everything. If the news is true, that is the beginning of the end of the Balkans, because Bulgaria won't resist. Greece will be at its wit's end without Turkey's help and what can Turkey do all alone? So Hitler comes to Asia Minor and that means India. This is what I thought, long before, that Hitler might do in the Balkans. The Asura is up to his tricks again. Now Hitler's moves are quite clear. He will try to move Page -938 towards the Mediterranean, taking possession of the Suez and then Egypt with a simultaneous movement into Spain for Gibraltar with the help of Franco if willing or, if unwilling, without his help and by replacing him with Sumer. That is why he has probably asked Sumer to wait. After Egypt, he will try to take North Africa with Pétain's consent. If Pétain refuses, he may place Laval at the head. And if both refuse, then he will occupy the whole of France and the Mediterranean ports. Then through Spain he can move to Africa. All this will be most dangerous to England and the blockade won't be effective any more. In fact I felt this danger from the very beginning of the war. NIRODBARAN: But will Russia remain quiet all through? SRI AUROBINDO: It seems to be like that till now. Except for a short inquiry about Rumanian affairs she has done nothing. Don't know what has happened to Stalin's brain. PURANI: Even if she comes in, it will be too late afterwards. She should come in now. SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so. It is because of the lack of her support that these powers are breaking down. They know that England can't do anything to support them because England can't help them with land forces. Even Italy by herself outnumbers England. NIRODBARAN: Turkey is depending too much on Russia. As nobody knows what Russia's motive is, it can't be safe for Turkey. If Russia betrays her? SRI AUROBINDO: Exactly. You remember what that Turkish lady - Dilip's friend - said? She said that England is a decadent nation; Turkey won't profit by joining with her. And when she was asked what Turkey's fate would be if England went down, she said, "Why? We will join Russia!" NIRODBARAN: I wonder if Stalin has made a secret pact with Hitler. SRI AUROBINDO: That is what all suspect. But what will be the value of any such pact if England is defeated? Then Italy, Germany and Japan will all turn on Russia. NIRODBARAN: How, if Greece and Turkey together put up resistance to Hitler? SRI AUROBINDO: That would be an effective check. England could come in with her air and navy. Page -939 PURANI: Yes, and Italy could have a little fun from the R.A.F. SRI AUROBINDO: But the world is under a double curse of stupidity and cowardice. This Hitler is very supple. He takes one step at a time, not the whole movement. When he saw that he had been baulked on one side, he turned to his other side, the danger I had anticipated from the very start. NIRODBARAN: Now England has only America to rely on. PURANI: But America is not prepared. She has only a seventy thousand strong army which she must keep for her own defence because she herself runs some danger. SRI AUROBINDO: She is in no immediate danger unless Hitler establishes himself in South America. That is not possible as long as there is the British fleet. NIRODBARAN: They could get help from India if they started munitions factories. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, they are going at a snail's pace. Starting now an aeroplane factory at Bangalore!
21 OCTOBER 1940PURANI: Vinoba has made five speeches. NIRODBARAN: Has there been any effect? SATYENDRA: There is some effect among the masses. On the news of his arrest there was a partial hartal in Bombay. It seems the speeches are censored. The papers mention: "Two or three sentences are censored here." The Indian Express wanted to bring out a special number on this rumoured arrest but couldn't because of the censorship. SRI AUROBINDO: It could have published the fact that nothing had happened! (Laughter) PURANI: But what effect can non-violence produce? India has been traditionally non-violent from ancient times. So not much preaching is required. SRI AUROBINDO: How? India was fighting all the time before the English rule. Everybody was fighting and there was no distinction between martial and non-martial races. It is only after the English came that people lost their fighting habits and ability. NIRODBARAN: The Yugoslavian pact with Hitler seems a fact. Page -940 SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. However, it is good news that Turkey says she will resist. She is not depending on Russia. NIRODBARAN: Nothing is known about Greece. PURANI: There is no more blitzkrieg. So England can anticipate Hitler's moves now and prepare accordingly. NIRODBARAN: But what can England do in the East unless Greece and Turkey resist? SRI AUROBINDO: If they resist it will be an effective check. England can come with her air force and navy. PURANI: Italy can be easily pounded. SRI AUROBINDO: Not only Italy; from her bases, England can attack East Germany and Poland, where Hitler has factories, and then Rumania itself. The British can close its embassy in Rumania on the plea that she is now an enemy-occupied country. Then it will be an even game. SATYENDRA: Ribbentrop is going to Moscow, it seems. PURANI: Yes, to bring Moscow into Germany's three-Power pact. SATYENDRA: They say Germany's relations with Russia are sound, solid — SRI AUROBINDO: And durable - the three words meaning the same thing. SATYENDRA: The Indian Express has published news of the birth of Churchill's grandson. SRI AUROBINDO: The Hindu too! SATYENDRA: Oh, I thought it was too small a news for the Hindu. Soon they will give the photo of the baby. SRI AUROBINDO: War baby! (Laughter) PURANI : Anilbaran wants to know what the relation is between cosmic consciousness and Overmind. SRI AUROBINDO: Relation? What relation? PURANI: I told him that Overmind is an instrument like Supermind. SRI AUROBINDO: Cosmic consciousness has many levels: it can be of mind, vital and matter; of Overmind too. So what does he mean by relation between them? Cosmic consciousness is a term used in contrast to individual consciousness. Through it you get to know about the universe. Overmind is a power of cosmic consciousness just as mind, vital and body are. Only, you can have body, vital and mind without any knowledge of cosmic consciousness. Page -941 while to go to or know Overmind you must have cosmic consciousness. The cosmic working can be known by entering into Overmind, but for the source you have to go to Supermind. You can know the working from Overmind knowledge but to get control or command or the final secret you must have Supermind,. which is an instrument of self-determination of the Divine and has organised the cosmos.
22 OCTOBER 1940SATYENDRA: In reply to the judge as to whether he had anything to say, Vinoba is supposed to have said that they had made a disgraceful translation. SRI AUROBINDO: Translation? SATYENDRA: Yes, Sir. He made speeches in Marathi and they were translated into English. SRI AUROBINDO: Why disgraceful? Means inaccuracy in language or incorrectness in content? SATYENDRA: Don't know. PURANI: Though he is a scholar in Sanskrit, he has not read Shakuntala and considers this a great virtue! He has learned Sanskrit in order to read the Gita and the Upanishads. SRI AUROBINDO: Not Shakuntala because it is erotic? PURANI: Probably. Mahadev Desai has put forth Vinoba's philosophy in the Hindu today. Vinoba says: We live because we can't die. We eat and walk, etc., because we are compelled to. We sleep because sleep overcomes us. SRI AUROBINDO: I thought it was other way round. We die because we can't live. PURANI: That was what I thought too. SATYENDRA: He must have said in relation to something. Perhaps a friend of mine holds the same view. SRI AUROBINDO: How is that? SATYENDRA:I spoke about it once before: he wanted to commit suicide, took a lethal dose of opium but it didn't kill him. Another friend had many accidents but death escaped him. PURANI: He could have taken potassium cyanide! Desai continues to say that Vinoba had differences with Ramdas. Ramdas says the doer is free while Vinoba says he is not. As I said Page -942 before, according to him we sleep because we are compelled to. In everything we do there is a compulsion. SRI AUROBINDO: One can say one is compelled to be born, at least in appearance. But does Ramdas say one is free? PURANI : He says partially free — in the process of becoming free. SRI AUROBINDO: That is a different matter. PURANI: Sardesai makes out in the course of a talk that Shivaji had no political guidance from Ramdas: Ramdas refused to give any when Shivaji approached him. This is something new. SRI AUROBINDO: What about the ochre-coloured flag? A legend? PURANI: He says that Ramdas gave him advice about the succession to the throne when Shivaji wanted his second son to come to the throne instead of Shambhuji. Ramdas advised him to make his eldest son the rightful heir and to follow the usual royal custom. SRI AUROBINDO: He did guide him then? PURANI: It is only part of a talk Sardesai gave, in which he says that he will put forward only two or three points for the present. Shambhuji, he says, was not as bad as is made out. SRI AUROBINDO: White-washing? PURANI: Yes, and if it was eating and drinking, that was a common fault. Everybody used to do it. SRI AUROBINDO: Queer defence! If he wants to be original he must say something unexpected. SATYENDRA: Lothian is mentioned as a possible Viceroy of India. SRI AUROBINDO: Oh! In that case they will have to change Amery too. But Lothian is doing much useful work in America. Can he be spared? PURANI: Lord Lloyd is also suggested by the diehards! SRI AUROBINDO: Good Lord! They may as well send the devil himself or Sir John Anderson. It will be disastrous! But the Labour Party may not consent. When is the present Viceroy to go? PURANI: After six months. SRI AUROBINDO: That's a long time!
EVENINGAmando Menezes has written another book of poems and has sent a copy to Sri Aurobindo. Purani asked if he had read it. Page -943 SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, some of the poems. There is a remarkable change. There is one written on 21st February. He has still to progress till every word becomes inevitable. His long poems are not so successful. PURANI : Yes. He says that he is afraid to read The Life Divine lest he should have to make a choice between the worldly life and the spiritual. He got something at the Darshan. SRI AUROBINDO: There are two or three poems in connection with that mood. I have read Desai's account of Vinoba. He has combined Buddha and Plato in him. He could have added Diogenes too. It seems Vinoba doesn't like literature. Only history and philosophy interest him. PURANI: Yes, I told you he is proud of not having read Shakuntala. SRI AUROBINDO: Not only Shakuntala, but literature in general doesn't interest him. PURANI: Yet he is said to be a great lover of art. Somebody told him that he is an ascetic and doesn't appreciate beauty. He replied that he loves beauty; he loves flowers and the starlit sky. He would rather tear off his skin than pluck a flower. SRI AUROBINDO: That is the popular notion of art and artist. If you love flowers and admire the sky you are considered an artist. I saw in Prabuddha Bharata that Vivekananda was called a great master of art because he loved music. SATYENDRA: Perhaps one can be an artist by appreciating art? SRI AUROBINDO: In that case many people are artists. NIRODBARAN: If one can sing well? SRI AUROBINDO: Singing well doesn't make one an artist - that is my point. An artist must either create something or have an aesthetic understanding of art. Anybody can look at the moon or the sky and get an emotion. PURANI: Now they give a new definition to art. They say art must be able to transmit emotion. Otherwise it is not art or it is art that has no value. SRI AUROBINDO: What emotion? PURANI: Feeling, I suppose. SRI AUROBINDO: Feeling? What feeling? PURANI : Such as an agriculturist or farmer can understand. That is their conception and in that they are followers of Tolstoy. You Page -944 know Gandhi is greatly influenced by Tolstoy and follows his view of art, the puritanic and popular view. SRI AUROBINDO: That puritanic element exists in many places. Even Ruskin who was considered an authority on the aesthetic element in art had puritanism in his blood. Puritanism has been brought from Europe to India. In India even ascetics were not puritans. PURANI: Musriwalla is trying to introduce some ideas of spirituality. He has written three or four books on the lives of Buddha and others. He says that experiences are not reliable because they take place in Nature. SRI AUROBINDO: In that case you can't realise God because the experiences will be in Nature. The only thing to do is to commit suicide to get out of Nature. PURANI: Or sit quiet. SRI AUROBINDO: That will be in Nature! PURANI: Musriwalla has no idea of these things, not even elementary principles of Sankhya. He doesn't realise that in Nature one can have the contact of something of Supernature. He has no imagination, either. He says Valmiki has depicted Ayodhya as a rich, luxurious city. SRI AUROBINDO: Should it have been described as a poor village? Then if he read Kalidasa he would squirm with agony. PURANI: For such people everything should be simple, bare, austere and poor. I don't understand why poverty should be made to appear so great. SRI AUROBINDO: Because Tolstoy said it and Gandhi said it after him! PURANI: He is also against temples. There is no necessity of temples according to him. As somebody said, churches are not necessary, for the Bible can be read in the fields. SRI AUROBINDO: Why houses then? Everybody can live in the fields like the birds and animals; it will be quite natural. SATYENDRA: Rumania seems to be in luck. It has got not only the Germans but an earthquake too. PURANI: Yes, like Turkey. SRI AUROBINDO: But Turkey has no Germans! PURANI : The Germans are trying to penetrate into Bulgaria also in the guise of tourists. Page -945 SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. Hitler didn't find Boris very - PURANI: Pliable? No. 23 OCTOBER 1940PURANI: Gandhi hasn't appointed any successor to Vinoba. He says that this time there won't be a continuous stream of resister. SRI AUROBINDO: If he appoints one every month so that they may be spread over the whole period of the war, it will be all right. SATYENDRA: He wants to proceed very carefully this time as he doesn't want to precipitate any mass movement and thus give the Government cause for provocation. SRI AUROBINDO: Especially as now is the best chance! (Laughter) But surely by a few arrests he doesn't expect to change the hearts of people like Churchill and Amery. PURANI : He says any number of people are volunteering. But he will select only those who believe in complete non-violence and Khadi, etc. Even these may not all be expected to be called. He evidently has some plan or is waiting for inspiration! SATYENDRA: He may wait indefinitely but I fear the Working Committee won't. SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): No! They will be wild. PURANI: Churchill's speech is again magnificent. He has a wonderful quality of rising to the occasion. He has made a very stirring appeal to the French not to succumb to Hitler's perfidious cunning. It is mostly due to his personality that America has turned her sympathies towards Britain. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, but also helped by the misdeeds of Japan and Hitler. (Laughter) Churchill is the second great man given by his family to England at times of crises. PURANI: Some American correspondent has said that though destruction from bombing is going on in London, people are as firm as before and taking it all coolly. SRI AUROBINDO: It seems for the first few days they were very perturbed. That's what Mona's mother has written to her. Then they accustomed themselves to the bombing. SATYENDRA: In such circumstances, people become fatalists. SRI AUROBINDO: It is like the Japanese. In Japan there is a fire every week, a typhoon each fortnight and an earthquake every Page -946 month. Mother said that they go to bed quite dressed and as soon as any of these things take place, they jump out of bed and rush out. (Laughter) (After some time) Laval is at his game trying to make a pact with Hitler. I hope people understand him and won't believe in him. Those who understand Hitler ought to know that Hitler will agree to anything that suits him at the moment and afterwards swallow everything. PURANI (handing Sri Aurobindo Dean Inge's book on Plotinus): It seems Krishnaprem has said that Plotinus's Nous is the same as Supermind. Somebody from outside has asked if that is true. SRI AUROBINDO (after looking at a few pages): Inge takes Nous as Spirit. As far as I can make out, Nous is spiritual consciousness, not Supermind, but I will see about it again. 24 OCTOBER 1940SRI AUROBINDO (addressing Purani): Laval is involved in a great labour! Laval is trying to bring about peace in France by some agreement with Hitler. Proposals seem to be to give Nice to Italy, put Tunis under France and Italy, cede Alsace-Lorraine to Germany, Morocco to Spain, Indo-China to Japan, surrender air and navy to the Axis and have France declare war against England. SATYENDRA: Will the French fight? PURANI: If they had wanted to fight they could as well have gone on fighting against Germany in the first place. SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so! NIRODBARAN: But Hitler may hold out the threat that if they don't agree, the whole of France will be occupied. SRI AUROBINDO: If they do agree, they will lose their colonies. This seems to be Hitler's game. It is quite clear now what happened at the Brenner Pass. They must have decided to spread out to the Balkans and then to the east to Egypt, and on this line bring France and Spain into the war. Sumer's visit and Hitler's visit to Franco must be to induce Spain. There must be an Italian brain behind this scheme. Hitler moves to the front with one objective at a time. This Page -947 sort of combination is not usual for him. It must be Mussolini's calculating brain. It is a large scheme this time, not like Hitler's previous moves. NIRODBARAN: Britain and America are proceeding with their evacuation. Do they think an attack is imminent? SRI AUROBINDO: They must have got some private information. Even if there is a chance, Japan won't say anything. They will simply make arrests. But the old Japan during the Magi regime would have said something. 28 OCTOBER 1940EVENING
Radio news came that Italy has invaded Greece. SRI AUROBINDO : It is the result of their Brenner Pass meeting. PURANI: England will now have a chance to bombard Italy from close quarters. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, if they know how to use this opportunity they can occupy the islands there. PURANI: If Turkey wants to fight, she should join now. SRI AUROBINDO: If she has any sense she ought to. The British can't send an army. Unfortunately the Greeks are not good fighters. If the Turks come in, then they can put up a fight. They have their army in Thrace. PURANI: Turkey spoke some time ago about giving help to Greece, an alliance, probably. SRI AUROBINDO: Alliance or understanding? PURANI: May be understanding. SRI AUROBINDO: Turks usually keep to their undertakings. NIRODBARAN: Unless Russia beguiles them. SRI AUROBINDO: But will Russia protect Turkey if she is invaded? (After a while) Gandhi has been forestalled in non-violence by Poland. The Poles adopted non-violence against the Nazis and do you know the results? The Polish lady, who wants to come here and is Ravindra's friend, wrote to Gandhi an account of the German oppression against the non-violence. She has given a report in a Page -948 Telegu paper which accidentally came into Satyakarma's hands. He was very upset and spoke to the Mother. The Mother has asked Krishnayya to translate it. The Polish lady cites a few horrible instances of atrocity on men and women, young and old. 29-30 OCTOBER 1940Very little talk these days. PURANI: Hyderabad wants to be an independent sovereign state after the war and has asked the British to withdraw their forces and treat it as an equal. It says that if India gets Dominion Status, Hyderabad should become an independent sovereign state. SRI AUROBINDO: An independent dominion within a dominion? PURANI: No, an independent state altogether. SRI AUROBINDO: Why does Hyderabad wait for the war? It can do that now. PURANI: Yarjung Bahadur with his assembly is the leader. SRI AUROBINDO: Oh, him? It's an assembly of idiots! But what will happen is that the Nizam will be the first to be kicked out. He knows it very well. PURANI: He claims that Hyderabad has always been independent. But in fact in five battles with the Mahrattas, it was utterly defeated; not a single battle went in its favour. Yarjung says that the Nizam is contributing so much to the war fund, so he must be treated as an ally, equal in status. SRI AUROBINDO: It is not the Nizam who is contributing but Sir Akbar who is forcing him to contribute. Otherwise the Government knows very well what the Nizam's views are. PURANI: Sir Akbar will be coming here now. SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. NIRODBARAN: Nripen Sarcar is coming too. So they will meet. PURANI: It seems Sarcar has suddenly turned religious. He has employed Sanskrit pundits and is learning Sanskrit. SRI AUROBINDO: I see? Preparing himself for the other world. Whatever he has had to achieve he has done in this world and is now doing things for the next? (Laughter) Page -949 NIRODBARAN: Charu Dutt seems to have persuaded him to come here and also to buy a house to stay here for some time. SRI AUROBINDO: Buy a house? Queer ideal! Wants to do Yoga? NIRODBARAN: Probably. PURANI : He has spoken somewhere in the South against Hitler and the Nazis and, quoting from Mein Kamf, says that Hitler considers us "chattels and slaves". In a Nazi victory our lot will be like that. SRI AUROBINDO: Quite so. That is the well-known Nazi position on the coloured races. Pétain is now taking it up in France. PURANI : Yes, he has already started against the Jews. SRI AUROBINDO: He is also preventing coloured people from entering the Government service. Page -950 |